NOTE: In an earlier version of this post I mentioned that I had been unsuccessful at contacting Dr. Vera M. F. Hammer to get her comments on the Genetic Disk. After this post was published, and through the wonders of twitter, I was able to get in contact with her and she gave me some great insights into her involvement with the disk. Also, I’ve learned a bit about mineralogy and the differences between chert and schits and so have changed parts of the post due to this new information. I will note the areas that have been changed with an UPDATED tag. Thanks again to Dr. Hammer and to Edward Habsburg (@EdwardHabsburg) who connected us.
The red flags on this one just fly through the air. Just about nothing about this “artifact” makes sense. Honestly, it’s a little hard to know where to start here with this one. I guess a description is in order.
The disk is said to be made out of lydite and measures 22 cm in diameter and weighs 2 Kg. It’s apparently solid black in color and shaped like a Bi Disk. It’s carved on both faces, and has random images carved on it depicting what some are calling “the cycle of life.”
I can’t find any official origin story for the disk. What I can cobble together from the websites that focus on the disk is only that it was found somewhere in Columbia by a gentleman named Jaime Gutierrez-Lega, who is a well known industrial designer in Columbia. At some point after it was found it was taken to the Museum of Natural Sciences of Vienna, Austria, and reportedly studied by Dr. Vera M. F. Hammer. She somehow managed to date the stone and apparently assigned it to the Pre-Columbian Muisca-culture.
Now, lets really begin to break this one down, because I’m rather surprised this one fools anyone once you really start to look at it.
First, There is no account or record of the Genetic Disk ever being discovered. This is kind of unusual because even fake artifacts have origin stories usually listing time(s) and place(s), often giving details of how the artifacts were found and by who. This time all we have is “The Disk was found in Columbia by Jaime Gutierrez-Lega.” This doesn’t tell us anything, and it’s sure doesn’t help create confidence in authenticity. Columbia is a big place, where in Columbia was it found? How did Gutierrez-Lega discover it? Was he digging with a group or did he just stub his toe on it? Why is there no record of it being discovered? Are there any other witnesses to the discovery? What did he do to preserve it? Where did he take it? Who else saw this artifact? Does Mr. Gutierrez-Lega even know he’s associated with the Disk or is he a convenient target for the conspiratorial minded?
What I have been able to cobble together about the Genetic Disk I’ve found on a variety of personal blogs, that I will list in the resources below. However, other than repeating the same shoddy details, they mainly just marvel over how cool the carvings are on the Disk and how they clearly show “the process of life” including two naked individuals, images of sperm, fertilized eggs, embryos, and some other random squiggles. I mean, these are cool images, very sleek and modern looking, but they are not evidence of anything by themselves.
(UPDATE) Second. The claim here is that lydite is as hard as granite and is also delicate and flaky, making it too hard for prehistoric people to carve and too delicate for them to carve in such detail anyway. The first problem is that the way people are trying to support these claims is comparing the MOHS scale reading of lydite to that of granite. Never-minding that lydite and granite are two completely different types of rock (Hammer 2013), the MOHS scale does not apply to rock, so the hardness of the rock used to carve the disk is not relevant (Hammer 2013).
As to not being able to carve something like this mysterious delicate and flaky rock, I’d like to point out that prehistoric peoples were incredibly gifted at carving shell and thin sheets of Mica into gorgets and other forms of jewelry. They were just as capable at carving delicate materials as they were crafting stone tools.
Now, that’s not saying I believe that the Genetic Disk is made out of any of these materials. There is nothing supporting the descriptions of the Disk. It is my opinion that the stone the Disk is made of is not lydite at all. Dr. Hammer gave a good deal of information on the actual composition of the material of the disk, and I am leaving that for the section below.
(UPDATED) Third. Lets begin to look at the people involved with the disk.
The supposed finder of the Genetic Disk is Jaime Gutierrez-Lega, who is an Industrial Designer known for his modern and sleek designs in his artwork. We know Gutierrez-Lega is a real person, but I have no idea what, if anything, he has to do with archaeology. I can’t really say more than that with any certainty. I have not been able to find a way to contact him. However, if this story is remotely true, I find it very suspicious that an modern artist found an artifact out of the blue, that looks very sleek and very modern in design. I’m not saying Mr. Gutierrez-Lega has done anything, it’s my guess he’s probably not involved, or if he is, he’s been horribly taken out of context and his goodwill taken advantage of.
Which brings us to the next participant. As I stated at the beginning of this post, Dr. Vera M.F. Hammer recently contacted me to answer my questions about her involvement with the disk. She was very kind to do so, and it was very exciting to talk to someone living who is involved in something like this. I have reproduced Dr. Hammer’s account here.
Dr. Hammer is a Mineralogist, not a Geologist as some sites (myself included, sorry.) have said. Since 1992 she has worked as a curator for the Natural History Museum in Vienna, Department of Mineralogy and Petrography. According to Dr. Hammer she first encountered the disk in 2001 through Mr. Klaus Dona, an individual I didn’t touch on last time, but will get to this time. But first, Dr. Hammer’s account:
“I was asked in the year 2001 by Mr. Klaus Dona, who curated the exhibition “Unsolved Mysteries” in the same year in Vienna, to make XRD analyses of some of the exhibited objects. Most of the objects include new materials and I told him that this were fakes, but this is not what he wants to hear… Even other scientists from our Museum told the owners of the objects, and Mr. Klaus Dona, that all that stuff is not what they believed. Some of the exhibited objects were curiosities by the nature, others man made new stuff which you can buy in any touristic shop in that areas. But anyway, our comment about the so called „genetic disc“ was only that it consists of feldspar, quartz and mica, which was proved by XRD measurement.
My former director who was petrologist said, that this rock could be lydite (a grey to black fine grained schist) or an artificial product made of this minerals. I never classified the disk or any other of these objects to a special cultural period or give any statement of age, which in fact are not part of my competence. So, this was the only information we gave, not more! All interpretation of symbols and signs, age or anything else arise in the head of the owner and/or the curator of the exhibition! There was no author given in the catalogue about “Unsolved Mysteries”, so in fact, I don’t know who writes all that nonsense!”
Dr. Hammer’s statement pretty much concludes this whole thing. The one and only official researcher who is mentioned as having studied the Disk tells us it is a fake.
So let’s take that closer look at Mr. Klaus Dona.
Mr. Dona appears to be based out of Austria and calls himself a Spiritual Archaeologist. I’m not sure what that means, but I’m pretty skeptical it’s a real sub-field of archaeology. Mr. Dona’s website is Unsolved Mysteries, where he sells some books, has some more extensive explanations of the Genetic Disk and other artifacts. In his explanation for the Disk he says “Geologists at the University of Bogotá date it to a prehistoric epoch. The most recent examinations were unable to find evidence of faking.” Except for the researchers at Natural History Museum in Vienna telling him they were fakes and also the fact that Geologists aren’t going to be able to date an artifact, also I notice he’s stopped giving the names of his researchers.
Mr. Dona also has a hard time keeping his own facts straight. In a video on YouTube titled “Klaus Dona – The Hidden History of the Human Race – Must Watch” at about 25:50 he begins to talk about the Disk. He says there is no way to identify the culture that produced the artifacts and that the way the artifacts were dated was by guessing the artifacts were older than any known civilization in the area, therefore they must be 6,000 years old. Very scientific. He doesn’t mention how any of these things were found, where exactly they were found, why they are considered older than all other civilizations in the area, or who the researchers were that helped date and identify and interpret the Disk et al. He gives no evidence whatsoever to back up any of his claims.
Fourth. It is really hard to date rock, and assuming you could get a date, you would literally be dating the rock itself, not the artifact that was made out of the rock. There is often no organic material on rock to date to get an age for the artifact, and so, often the age of rock artifacts is reliant on the context of the area it was found in, or, as in the case of stone tools, the style in which the artifact was made. So how they got a date for the Disk is beyond me. Unless people are trying to say that the age of the rock is concurrent with the age of the Muisca-culture, in that case, there is no evidence to support this. Though according the Mr. Dona, they are basically just making it up.
Fifth and lastly. I don’t see any similarities between the artwork on the Disk and the artwork left behind by the Muisca-culture. The few Muisca items I’ve seen don’t look anything like the Disk. Which I guess is the point, but if this was a culture that lived along side of the Muisca, why is there no other evidence of their presence? If this was a more advanced people, visiting their vast knowledge on an ancient peoples, why is there no further evidence for their presence? If this was the work of aliens, then why is there no further evidence….well you get the point.
(Updated) My Observations.
The Genetic Disk is just so bizarre to me because, if you ask any questions at all about it, the whole story begins to fall apart. The one named researcher who supposedly helped date and decode the disk clearly did not. Not only that, she clearly told Mr. Dona that the Disk and it’s related artifacts were fakes. The museum where the Disk was supposedly studied is a fake place. There is no documentation, fake or otherwise, to support where and how the disk was found. The material of the disk could probably be man-made, meaning that the Disk could have been (probably is) a cast. Mr. Dona, being informed of this, continues to change his story about the Disk, evolving it to meet his needs. I mean, the only thing I am convinced of is that somewhere there is an object that looks like the picture above. There is absolutely nothing supporting the validity or reality of the disk.
Resources:
Hammer, Vera M. F.
2013 Personal Correspondence via Email. December 17, 2013.
N.d Personal reference page – http://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/en/research/mineralogy__petrography/staff/vera_m_f_hammer. Accessed 12/11/2013
Hurst, K. Kris.
N.d. Musica Culture. About.com http://archaeology.about.com/cs/glossary/g/muisca.htm”>http://archaeology.about.com/cs/glossary/g/muisca.htm. Accessed 12/11/2013
Questionable Resources:
Above Top Secret. The Awesome Mystery of the Pre Columbian “Genetic Disc”. Astonishing Knowledge! http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread770144/pg1. Accessed 12/11/2013
Klaus Dona, Spiritual Archaeologist. http://projectcamelot.org/klaus_dona.html. Accessed 12/11/2013
Onovus: Ancient Mysteries and Present Discoveries. Genetic Disc | Advanced Biological Knowledge in Ancient Times. https://onovus.wordpress.com/tag/genetic-disk/. Accessed 12/11/2013
Unsolved Mysteries: The Genetic Disc. http://unsolved-mysteries.info/english/objects/e01_01c.htm. Accessed 12/11/2013
Archaeological Fantasies 
Very interesting read. An exhaustive and compelling critique.
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Thank you.
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nicely written and you are probably right
but what if there is no evidence, no data, no pictures, no direct answers to you, only because somebody don’t wont us to know – conspiracy theory hihihi
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I’d only have to ask, Who is this “somebody”? Why don’t they want us to know? What harm could come of this if it were real? Who benefits from keeping it secret?
These and other questions would have to be addressed before I would even consider the reality of the Disk. As is, currently I don’t believe the disk even is a tangible object.
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If all this so called conspiracy theories (or at least half of them) were true we all know that first the church would make a big fuzz (they would probably loose lot’s of believers – with that money) than all the school books would have to be rewritten (to many expenses – government) also for the majority of the people it is easier to accept and understood the Darwin’s theory (mass kaos). Just a few somebodies.
Don’t misunderstand me the way your article is written (very good) you can really believe that this disc is a prank. But maybe some others are not.
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Well, The Church is no concern of mine, and I suspect they have far less power than is attributed to them. Also, when they come out against things, it tends to backfire on them and those things become even more popular. Not to mention the Church is not at odds with modern science, because science has nothing to do with religion.
As for the school books, those change yearly anyway and it’s up to the individual states (or at least it is here in the USA) to decide which books to use and what is in them. As our recent trouble with the Texas school board has shown. So, here in the USA, this is also not an issue.
Lastly, Mass Kaos is not Darwin’s theory, and Evolution, as it is understood and taught today, has evolved well beyond Darwin’s modest theory. Also, evolution is a field of science and as such is ruled by evidence. If you can prove something and it can survive the harsh criticism of your peers, then it will be accepted and incorporated into the field. Science is self correcting, though I admit, it does take time.
If there was convincing evidence of these things being real, believe me, researchers would be fighting over being the first to discover and analyze them.
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Exactly “why” someone or some organization would want to hide something is a question I often ask myself. If there really were aliens and the government had made contact, why would they hide this from the public? Wouldn’t we benefit from the technology they could bring? And if there were artifacts that were “found” that a government doesn’t want us to access, such as the Chinese pyramids where only peasant farmers are allowed into the area of, why should they hide it? What gives them the right?
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Excellent job! It’s good that you have been able to contact Dr. Hammer! And I have a feeling that Klaus Dona should be challenged more often 🙂
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A group of russian “alternative history” enthusiasts (majority of whom are physics scientists) have contacted Mr Dona, asking him if they could have his artifacts to study. I heard he was very un-cooperative. He probably know what happened to the original crystal scull.
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Some of the figues on that disc remind of prehistoric Venus figurines. Some look like Neolithic figurines and the two squatting females at the bottom look very like sheela na gigs which are found carved in churches in the UK. Looks like someone has copied various images from different periods plus adding some of their own to make this fake.
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Easy mate just read through what your website had to say and quite frankly you have no evidence here disproving the disc and not meaning to be rude but I don’t particulary have a problem with you having an opinion that is likely to be wrong but expressing this to other people could be damiging to the integrity of the find which I see as rather maraculas and if your interested in the disk dr klaus took the disk or at least had involvement in the disk with a mr Eric von daniken who dedicated nearly a full chapter of one of his books to the disk there is more confirmation of its integrity there I’ve forgot which book it’s in but there a more reliable source of information then most Internet sorces sorry about the spelling and the rudeness but I don’t mean to be lol
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I think it’s the same klaus any way name rings a bell but thort it was a man js lol
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I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at here. Are you trying to use Von Daniken as a reference to support the authenticity of the Genetic disk? If so, I don’t find that very compelling and would encourage you to red the post again.
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Mr. Wray, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence – nobody needs to “disprove” extraordinary assertions.
For instance, if I posit that the disc was made by the sheep-people of planet Nosuchplace, I have the same amount of evidence as Mr. Dona that my assertion is true!
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Really all this proves is that the material in the rock contains material we classify as “modern”
Considering this Klaus Donna guy’s whole point is arguing for advanced technologies in the ancient past, stating there are advanced materials in the rock prove only that there are advanced materials in the rock. No age is assumed from this materials presence (unless you want the rock to be “fake”, then you assume the mystery is solved) But playing devil’s advocate the “ancient” side can just claim the advanced materials suggest ancients had technology, and the “fake” side can claim the same materials suggest it is a fake.
It’s circular logic. However, it is good to know this Vera doctor feels like she was being coerced and encouraged by Klaus to make things sound more interesting. That is revealing as well.
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To say something is “modern” is to place it within a recent time frame, it’s not the same as saying something is “advanced”. Donna wants us to believe that these articles are of ancient origins, but that is not supported by the evidence.
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May I ask – did you actually able to physically examine this disk? Or was there an independent examination made?
There’s a lot of “probably this” “probably that” in what you’re saying. More like you’re just guessing.
I hope we can have someone physically scrutinize these artifacts.
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Dr. Hammer examined the disk and it’s related items herself. She has given us a first person account.
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Thanks.. There seems to be a lot of claims of wild archeological finds these days.. Maybe someone could put up a tv show where experts cross-examine these OOPs.. That would be a fun and informative gig, as long as they stick to hard facts like carbon dates or radiometric..
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There’s been pipe-dreams about such shows, maybe one will succeed one day.
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I am not trying to point out the obvious, but Dr. Hammer examined the object, right? An object you are skeptical to believe exists in physical form. For Dr. Hammer to make any conclusion of it’s compisision, she would have had to have it in her hands. So, that proves the object is not just a picture.
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The physical reality of the object isn’t the issue. The historical reality of the object is.
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I’m totally open to the possibility this is fake but your blog doesn’t state how you have conclusively established that. You just said a researcher who examined it said it was fake. Also, an artifact being an anomaly doesn’t make it fake. You may be right, but I don’t see how you have substantiated your contention. I’m not deciding yet whether it’s real or fake. Have you looked into the ideas that any Egyptian artifacts may be fake? Specifically, I have heard a theory about King Tut’s tomb possibly being fake. I forget the details, but there were apparently a lot of inconsistencies and anomalous things about the tomb and the mummy, like the fact it has a cobra and bird on the forehead. I am trying to look at alternative ideas but not just believe everything I hear, including that which came from purported dicoverers. It’s not like an archaeologist is guaranteed to be honest. We’re all human. An archaeologist could stretch the truth, commit fraud, or just be hasty in their analyses. I don’t like when sciences, like archeology, get to a point of dogma, where the professionals in a field essentially say they have it all figured out and there’s no room for further discovery or analysis. One example is the apparent age of the rock on the body of the Sphinx. That’s the most glaring example of archaeologists’ conclusions being substantively challenged by geology. What’s the explanation from formally recognized archaeology for the water erosion on the body of the Sphinx, which dates it back to 5000 years before its current ascribed age?
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I really like the way your wrote this. No badmouthing or other such things. The factual way you presented this is exemplary and has been educational to me as I am now listening to Mr. Dona talk about the genetic disc on a YouTube video. Thanks for your discretion and maturity.
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Many times when people talk about these unsolved mysteries they give us readers a hard time checking the facts. Names of socalled experts are hardly ever given, so it is very good that you managed to contact Frau Dr. Vera Hammer. I did look her up and found that there is new and shorter URI. So people who want to check out if she is a real person: http://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/vera_m_f_hammer.
Salut! Edmond V.O. Katusz
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She didn’t say the disc was fake. She said most of the artifacts were fake. Nowhere in her statement that you posted did she say the disc specifically was fake. She specifically said her comment about the disc was only about the materials it contained. Not wether that particular item was fake.
I don’t personally care if it’s fake or not, just be careful not to put words in people’s mouths.
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The context of her statement should make that clear.
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Can I get a ‘Dropa Stones’ anyone? Fizake as a mizutha-fizuck
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Thanks for the insightful article. A picture of the disc just appeared this evening on Pinterest with the story of its mysterious meanings, age (6,000 years) and carving of unexplained technology. I am glad to find your site with gives a rational explanation.
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Why is it called the “Genetic Disk”? What does it have to do with genetics?
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Supposedly the images carved on the disk depict the human embryonic lifecycle and the innards of human cells. I can only guess that whoever named the disk confused these things with genetics. Either that or they thought the name was snazzy.
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The other side shows the sperm and the egg, then the egg fertilized, and the embryo growing.
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Are there any really unsolved geological mysteries? And by the way what is ludite? I couldn’t find what exactly is this nineral if it exists…
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Dear Ekaterina Garcha,
Perhaps you mean Luddite? If this is the case check, please this link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite
Salut! Edmond V.O. Katusz
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I read this page there is nothing about the mineral. I mean that mineral from which they claim the disc is made. I searched in the internet and didn’t find any mineral with such name. Maybe it has other names? Or simply doesn’t exsist?
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Well another little mysterie solved! 8-))
Salut! Edmond V.O. Katusz
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Uraa! I found it. I just typed it incorrectly. It is just black basaltic rock containing plagioclase, augite, olivine, and nepheline, leucite, or analcite, formerly used as a touchstone.
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I would like to add something for you people who do not live in latin america (of which Colombia is part of), these countires have laws regarding archaeological finds, all of them are property of the government, and trading and selling them is punished with jail time. Now, our countries and citizens are not known for their honesty. Most likely that disk was found or bought for a couple of dollars from a local somewhere in Colombia; this doesn´t even mean it came from Colombia, it could have been made or forged decades ago. It could have come from anywhere. Also, let me point out that the law here says that if you find so much as an arrowhead in a site, you can´t mine there, so mining companies will remove everything they can find before govt officials arrive to the site. So is it a forgery ? Maybe, so far i have not seen proof that it is a forgery. But I haven´t seen proof that it is real either. I just wanted to let you know that here in latin america you can buy almost anything in the black market. Some years ago, a jade buddah was bought at a flea market (it has now been returned to the indian govt). The buddah had been brought to Chile by a british diplomat and was stolen by one of the maids, she then sold it to a friend who in turn sold it at a flea market, it was almost 1.000 years old. Of course all the newspapers freaked out, but it was traced to be intercontiental antiquity theft. So I just wanted you to know this, as i said before you can buy almost anything, most, if not all are modern fakes made for tourists, and some are real antiquities which will get you thrown in jail if you buy them, but nobody will tell you where they came from.
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It is propably not from Colombia but from the country where the Nazca-lines are comming from.
I can see the same figures as there are aspider an ape and so on.
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Thank you for this informative Expose’ – I follow ancient archaeology posts, and personally believe that Some digs and finds are beyond the accepted explanations. But I TOTALLY agree with your assessment of this one. Just TOO MUCH MISSING INFORMATION to be Legitimate at all.
I agree with others that it was AWESOME and Fortunate of you to find Dr./Mrs Hammer and her testimony is pivotal and enlightening.
I also agree with Ms. Ima France,… who posted :
“Excellent job! It’s good that you have been able to contact Dr. Hammer! And I have a feeling that Klaus Dona should be challenged more often.”
Ms. France is both Succinct, and Straight Forward. (^_^)
Be well, Mr. Archy.
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You have posed some serious questions, but just because you haven’t found answers does it mean the artifact isn’t real. You can never get a scientist to agree with another, there are many different opinions concerning the real life pyramids in Africa/ Egypt and there is many different opinions on Stonehenge, the best way to find the answer you seek is to put together a team then travel and do the research yourself but to draw conclusions simply because people refuse to talk to you is irresponsible.
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In journalism and research, when you attempt to interview someone talk to them about a particular topic,and they don’t reply or refuses to talk, it can draw some suspicions. With journsalism, you just put “Person A declined to comment.”
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Lol at this, klaus clearly describes how the disk was found, need I not mention his English is limited. along with other artifacts. The fact modern day science won’t entertain the possibility of a world wide cataclysmic event is beyond me.
The evidence is in our mythology in the form of global floods, in Greenland icecaps where examining ice from core drills shows global temperatures rose by 5c in a short period of time at end of the ice age.further more the fossil record of mass extinctions in that time period.
Possible cause could have been comit hitting the Ice or sea causing global wipeout.
This would have reset human life and most knowledge before it bar snippets that survived in stone.
Anyone want to comment on the ancient pre iceage maps, lost city’s underwater of the coast of Cuba, India, Japan pretty much most coastal areas before the ice age ended
Wake up people
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Yes. All good work but. Do not believe in it. Sounds like like a lot of wasted time on my part. Best of luck to you all.
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Finally I come across an individual who suspects this Klaus fellow of fraudulence. His name is always involved somehow in every one among this plethora of alleged “proofs” for the occurrence of “eye-pyramids,” golden ratio-related “spirals,” and the stars of the Orion in the Pre-Columbian Americas, none of which are even mentioned by mainstream archaeologists (as if these such finds, if authentic, would be unremarkable or too “dangerous” for the public to know about), and most of which always trace to an eccentric “Father Crespi” character (who possessed most of them for a time, as if some random individual were capable of finding so many ancient artifacts in one place in one lifetime), and “somewhere” in Ecuador. I applaud your research and doggedness to find answers! Keep up the good work!
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I just wanted to reply about Father Crespi. He was a well loved priest who served his parish for over 40 years. It has been well documented how locals would bring him gifts, and his collection was grown from over 40 years of locals giving him gifts for presiding over rituals such as baptisims and funerals. He did not find him, hisself. His colletion consisted of several rooms filled with artefacts. He even had seperate rooms filled with the obvious fakes. He kept his collection mostly private, with it being sold off by the church while he was on his deathbed.
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I’m not sure what any of this has to do with the authenticity of the disk.
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Finally I come across an individual who suspects this Klaus fellow of fraudulence. His name is always involved somehow in every one among this plethora of alleged “proofs” for the occurrence of “eye-pyramids,” golden ratio-related “spirals,” and the stars of the Orion in the Pre-Columbian Americas, none of which are even mentioned by mainstream archaeologists (as if these such finds, if authentic, would be unremarkable or too “dangerous” for the public to know about), and most of which always trace to an eccentric “Father Crespi” character (who possessed most of them for a time, as if some random individual were capable of finding so many ancient artifacts in one place in one lifetime), and “somewhere” in Ecuador. I applaud your research and doggedness to find answers! Keep up the good work!
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Another round of useless pseudo-skepticism. I’m not entirely sure about this disk, but the artifacts Klaus presented were said to have been found in a gold mine, by an engineer in the 80s. His collection was then acquired by Klaus or someone he knew (maybe the designer you were speaking of), and that’s what he was working on and presenting.
Now, as mentioned, I don’t know if the claim is 100% authentic. BUT, I do know there are very strong cases and documented incidents where the Smithsonian & others have purposely covered up, or retracted, removed, hide, obfuscated all kinds of archaeological finds that contradict modern establishment theories.
Egyptologists actually say the Oseirion was a “hoax” by ancient Egyptians, because it doesn’t fit in with the rest of their manufactured histories.
Also, see: “Fundamental Laws: The 68th convocation” a book written by a Rosicrucians order, recording the gathering their order in 1916. They state the uncut seal of the US was designed as such, unfinished. And it’s to be cut only when the “capstone” is ready to be placed on the pyramid. That in the golden age, or age of illumination, America was connected to Egypt by way of the Yucatan & when Mexico returns to the US the capstone will be ready.
These people called themselves the Illuminati & have an ancient order which congregated for worship & ritual magic in the name of Isis & Osiris or the philosophy of the fire. They also warned of black brotherhoods, orders that were engaged in dark magic & corruption.
The reason I mention this is because these orders, which hold sacred knowledge & texts, are well aware of many historical truths hidden from the world. (a colossal amount of proof of these things are in private collections)
This might all sound like nonsense & conspiracy theory ramblings, but consider the fact the CIA created “Conspiracy Theorist” as a means of attacking those who questioned the JFK murder & in recent times, a CIA historian admitted (documented) that McCone & Dulles helped cover-up the crime, & prevent the commission from accessing the full truth. ~90 people related to the case died in 10 years back then. A 100,000 Trillion to 1 chance of happening.
Conspiracies are the rule in politics throughout history, but in modern times we act like they’re the exception. We’ve allowed a massive secretive military industrial complex establishment to form, & they have complete control over the truth. They can dismiss & attack any who challenge establishment truths.
The fact is, even if these items are real, they will still be denounced as fake, by any museum, by anyone in the establishment. Right away, the prevailing “truth” all must follow is “anything modern made” found in archeological digs or finds or of antiquity is automatically fake. That’s not scientific.
Established theory approaches everything with pre-qualifiers. “Anything modern made is impossible to be from antiquity, ok, let’s investigate….look, a modern or unknown alloy, it’s fake!” and they find ancient statues or other items, and anything not fitting in to a preconceived conclusion is automatically ignored or buried, or discredited & the people involved attacked professionally. It’s ridiculous.
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I trust and like Dr. Klaus Dona. His slide lectures are sincere. What does he have to say about the HUMAN FISH of Slovenia and all the strange rocks and stones found nearby in the caves and underground river systems there? http://www.angelfire.com/de/Boiishaft/humanfish.html
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DR. Vera M.F Hammer does not say its fake! She only says:”that this rock could be lydite (a grey to black fine grained schist) or an artificial product made of this minerals. “
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Dr. Hammer clearly indicates that she didn’t think the artifacts were real.
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I would like to give you some information to grasp on. Doctor Jaime Gutierrez did not stump upon this object. He is a philanthropist, I don´t know him personally, but I have been told and it is obvious, with substantial economical resources. He, as many other rich people in the world, buys findings from a group of people who have dedicated their lives to excavate tombs and sites in search for gold and artifacts they can sell. They are called the “guaqueros” . They spread all across the Americas and they are particularly found of the most ancient cultures because they can get the finest elements that are sold in the black market. (Europe being one of their favorite customers, Berverly Hills being the second) As not to bore you with details, nowadays it is illegal to raid tombs but they still do it. Whenever a piece of archaeology is taken out of the areas where they come from, it becomes impossible to recover the history surrounding it. So in the Americas we have a huge blank spot in our history. So some of our very richest have taken upon themselves to buy from the guaqueros before the Europeans come with the bill money and help raid history. People like Doctor Gutierrez then set up a personal collection and puts it to the disposal of Universities and so on. There is no Bogotá University by the way. Somebody made it up. He has thousands and thousands of elements. He does gives presentations but they are for free and you can as easily as type his name in youtube and you get many videos. I personally understand why he buys from these looters. But the law may not see it the same way. So he can not have a museum and he can not look for certifications number one because he does not make his living doing this and number two he would have admit to buy the produce of not so saint activities. The devices, some of them surgical, are so well and precisely done that you can run them into a designing software like auto-cad and you get exact measurements to the mili-meter. Completely ergonomic. When he was confronted once that since he was an industrial designer could make those objects, he stated that he wished he had that expertise and then he proceeded to challenge anybody to reproduce the magnificence of these elements. The challenge was accepted by some engineers in the audience and so far there has not been a winner. The area where this elements were found was SOACHA, where the Spaniards heard the El Dorado Story that caused the lives of thousands of natives who could not tell our civilized conquistadores where the El Dorado was. But I am digressing. So those are the facts. Your article is leaning toward skepticism but with respect. This is what drove me to regard your work and give you a little bit more of rope. Perhaps you should contact this man Doctor Gutierrez and have a candid conversation with him. But if you come to Colombia, please don´t go to the Bogota University it is spooky there. Cheers
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Forgive my grammar mistakes. My apologies.
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I watched a you tube video on this saying believed to be 6,000 years old. How was this figured.
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Via their imagination
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Reading the nicely written post and the comments bring me two questions. If the artefact is fake, then the difficult job of carving on a 22 cm disk made of such hard materials should be done by some modern (advanced or elementary) well known tools which can be identified easily by experts. Additionally, it is also possible to have a good estimate of the cost of making a such disk as fake which gives an idea about the potential economic motive. Secondly what type of message is supposed to deliver if the disk is authentic.
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I just stumbled upon your site while looking for more information on the artifacts Klaus Dona, which are indeed puzzling and merit scientific debates. But not opinions like yours nor those of the fanboys you seem to fight against. Pardon me, but you seem a bit too emotional in your writing to be credible as a scientific ‘critic’ – as if critics had a place in that field. You seem however to compensate your lack of knowledge by contacting people with more expertise – which is a good thing – but make sure you understand what you type and clearly state the facts you want to tackle.
I am not convinced that it is a fake, neither a genuine artifact at this point. But I will highlight the points that made me discredit your opinion in here. I will dismiss your answers to some points people make on the internet, but will consider those you make to the points made by Mr Dona in its video, since it is what brought me here and it seems he is the one at the origin of this buzz.
From the video I saw, which I think is the one you linked, Mr Dona explained he started to collect ‘strange’ artifacts from around the world. Those may come from museums or private collection, which seems to be the case in here. I don’t expect individuals to keep record on the history of their artifact up to the one who first found it, like I can’t explain the origin of all items my grandgrandmother left us.
I will assume Mr Dona is telling the truth: he seems to be more objective than other people finding such pieces, refraining himself from throwing unbelievable theories, he just keeps accumulating evidence until, i guess, the picture comes clear or fades away. I do not consider him to be immune to fakes however.
On Lydite.
I think we are talking about the the sedimentary radiolarite lydite here, not the volcanic basanite. (http://www.ace.hu/am/2010_3/AM-10-03-MB.pdf, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiolarite, https://www.mineralienatlas.de/lexikon/index.php/RockData?lang=en&language=english&rock=Lydit). I remember I hated the mineral classification course, and I’d say I haven’t changed my mind: from the page titled ‘Basamite’ on mindat.org, they state ‘not to be confounded with basamite’ 😀 (https://www.mindat.org/min-9173.html).
The point Mr Dona made in his presentation was that the rock was very brittle, and easily breaks when you craft it. I have no experience with working stone, but I can imagine the difficulty. Searching for artwork made in lydite on google images (https://www.google.com/search?q=lydite+art&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiI2PP_8fXeAhUHjqQKHS1NDwsQ_AUIDigB&biw=1435&bih=763), I must admit that I only see the artifacts of Mr Dona. Searching for radiolarite or chert does not bring any image of anything comparable to that disk.
I conclude that, indeed, carving lydite is probably difficult, and it seems better suited to build knifes.
On Mrs Hammer answer.
In here as well, I have no reason not to believe her: she thinks it is a fake, she reported the mineral content and her director popped out the word lydite which Mr Dona kept repeating in his conference. She did not interpret the meaning of the artwork whatsoever.
Im afraid however that does not make any point against the validity of the disc, or maybe she could share her analysis on this very case.
Another point you have to keep in mind when interviewing scientists is that they probably care about their reputation in the community. A minority of them probably won’t give you the same answer if you guarantee their anonymity. Given the very unlikeliness of those artifacts being validated by the community, publicly supporting them may discredit you and may have an effect on your funding, maybe your job. Recently a former French nobel prize was ‘forced’ to leave to china to continue his research on very sensitive matter after having published a couple of papers in which he made “à priori” absurd hypothesis.
On Mr Klaus Dona calling himself a Spiritual Archaeologist
Where do you hold that from?
On the dating
Im not sure Im following your reasoning because you seems to mix multiple points and say a thing then the opposite. My understanding is that since it is unknown art, he assumes it comes from an unknown culture. Since most culture and their artistic styles in the area are known, he assumes it is a culture who existed prior those known cultures, which would date the disk back to 6000BC, according to him. I don’t see any flow in that reasoning, and I assume it is widely used in archaeology.
Im not sure with the facts though – does we know all cultures (and their art) which lived in south america until the spanish conquest? My understanding is that beside the well known inca there were a lot of smaller tribes. Maybe he made the assumption that to make such an artifact a culture would need to be a great one which would have left big buildings which we would have discovered by now. Im not sure about this assumption. Also, I don’t know where the 6000 years comes from, apparently cave paintings older than that have been reported in Peru.
On Muisca
The link to his site is dead, I found out it has moved to http://klausdonamysteries.x10host.com/, on which I could find its description of the disc:
“The “embryological disc” is one of the most interesting pieces from South America. The front and back show relief-type image symbols. One thesis states that they show the evolution from an amphibian to a human. Medical experts agree: Decisive developmental stages of human life can be identified. The eyes, which lie far to the outside with all head structures, and the wide nose segment speak in favour of this. These features are characteristic for an early embryonic head structure. But from what time is the disc? Geologists at the University of Bogotá date it to a prehistoric epoch. The most recent examinations were unable to find evidence of faking. Could the strange find come from a lost advanced culture? Was their knowledge equal to ours?”
So I know relayed information can be transformed quite quickly, but I have no idea where the Muisca come from.
On The museum where the Disk was supposedly studied is a fake place
The only museum I heard about is the one in Vienne where Mrs Hammers made the Xray analysis. I doubt it is fake.
Conclusion
Well your rant made me do a nice checkup on the facts, thanks for that.
My feeling is that neither the validity nor the invalidity of this disc could be proved, so until more evidence is provided we should not write anything in the History book. There are a lot of other objects in the same stone material, with the same style, and around the same ‘birth’ theme on his site however, no less impressive I must say.
I won’t state my final personal opinion in here, as I feel the debate is already hot enough 🙂
Concerning the ability of stone-age people to understand the development of an embryo, and given he mentions frogs in his description, I must add that embryo development has been studied on frogs in our science. Women used frog eggs as pregnancy tests because hormone in urine induce female frogs to lay eggs. Frogs produce large eggs, you can actually see with naked eye if they are fertilized. You can watch the development day to day the splitting of the cells, the amrbyo appearing: http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/sgilber1/DB_lab/Frog/frog_staging.html. We did it at school, all you need is a bunch of water and an egg chase during the season.
So although it is quite an exercise to make the parallel with human development, it does not seem impossible.
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Lecture given by eng. Gutierrez Lega about the disk
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Well I’ve spoken to Mr Dona myself. About this and other artifacts. I disagree with you. Typical for archaeologists are to stick with what they know and that’s it. I Know a professor in archaeology .(Uppsala University…) Accept we don’t know everything and continue searching! Archaeologists tend to think they have the answer to it all. They have not, through decades… And they have been proven wrong, through decades… So why should I believe you in this case? I know it’s sensitive. Anyway I do like you are searching but I don’t like when you’re explaining away things so easily as you sometimes do… We have so many things you archaeologists can’t explain at all so… Mathematics is clear – we know… Archaeology is a guesswork… And hence a subject for misinterpretation and therefore so sensitive… Sad but a fact.
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Archaeologists tend to favor evidence. When Mr. Dona presents evidence of anything other that the actual existence of the disc, it will be the first evidence of anything he has presented. Until then, he’s telling a fairy story.
Perhaps the disc was made by intelligent rutabagas! I have as much evidence as Mr. Dona does.
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